The Reality Of Buying A Boat Out Of Charter: What One Cruiser Wish He Knew Before Buying

Alright guys, welcome to another episode of the Bluewater Cruising Podcast. It's been a little bit since we've done one, and I'm super excited to hop on for this one with Steeve. Steeve's joining me here. He's in Germany at the moment, but he spent a fair amount of time over the last, I don't know how long it's been, maybe 18 months or something like that. We'll get into it with you, cruising around on his boat in the Caribbean. I met Steeve, I guess, two years ago, something like that, roughly two years ago. Yeah, you were in the second cohort, I think it was. You reminded me, I forgot, the second cohort, the second ever kind of program that we ran at Bluewater Cruising. So you were in on the ground floor. It's changed a lot since you've been in there, but yeah, you were one of the early guys through that actually came in, and then went out, bought a boat, and went cruising. And you went with your family, right?

I think you said you're from France originally, your wife's Polish, you've got two kids, three and five. Is that right? Yeah, exactly. A boy, five years at that time. At that time he was five, and at that time Adele, the little girl, was three. Yeah, okay, amazing. And yeah, you took the course, and then you learned, but we'll get into whatever you learned, if it was helpful or not helpful. I think it was helpful, because you ended up going through it and buying a boat, and getting off and cruising.

So before we get into any of that, you want to share a little bit more? I always like to know, when I hop on and do these, what was your life kind of like before? And what was it that inspired you? Or had you been thinking about it for a long time? What was it that made you think, hey, I want to go buy a boat and go start sailing around the Caribbean and adventuring around? Because I think people that listen to this podcast, a lot of people, they want to do it, but a lot of other people, if you told them that idea — and I don't know if you had this experience in your own life — but they think that you're crazy. Yeah, yeah. I mean, you hear that. We heard that a lot. Many of the participants in the class would hear that a lot.

No, so the story, Chris, is that actually, I mean, Covid is a part of the story. Like many of us over there, during the Covid time we were just having the second kid, the girl, and then we saw the Covid coming, the lockdown coming, and I said, oh man, what the hell. And then we went to Costa Rica, because I didn't want to spend our time in Germany. We were at that time working in Germany, I can come back on that. And then we went to Costa Rica to avoid a little bit the craziness of being locked down in a big city in Germany, in a nice but still an apartment, et cetera. And then I started thinking differently. After that, I started working remotely from Costa Rica, because we couldn't still travel, but I was back at work. And then this way of living differently, not going to the office every day, and having a family life that is different, in a different environment, in sort of an adventurous environment, because Costa Rica is a super great country for wildlife, et cetera — that's where it all started in the mind.

So that's, let's say, the sparker in the decision, saying, hey, you know what, we like this life, and we have only one life, and we want to see our kids growing, so let's take the next step. So we went back to Europe, of course, back to work, and then I was having a corporate life, working every day, going to work, seeing the kids in the evening, et cetera. So like many of the people who are listening to this podcast, most likely, the sparker was really the life that we experienced during the Covid time. Now, for the boats, I've been living close to the sea when I was in France. I was staying here and there, you know, for a weekend, maybe for a week. I did a crossing once, for the Indian Ocean, et cetera. And I always liked the sailing life, but my wife had no clue about it. And that's the reason why, to sort of align us as well as you describe, and as we discuss during the course, we took the course that you guys were proposing, because we thought it was important, not only about the sailing part, but as well all the things around it.

I'm sure we're going to go back on that, but once we bought the boat, purchased the boat, then we said, okay, now that's the right time. I took a sabbatical, because I was allowed to do that at that time, and then off we went to the boat. We took the boat in the BVI in the Caribbean, and then we sailed up north to do some upgrades, because it was a charter boat before. A Leopard 48 out of the fleet, from the Moorings. And then we went, we stayed up to the East Coast in the US, and then went back again. During this 18 months, we went back to the south of the Caribbean at the end. Okay, so you went up the East Coast to the US as well. How far up the coast did you go? We were planning to go up to New York, and Boston, and see Cape Cod, but at the end we took our time, and we enjoyed it, and we stopped at North Carolina, Charleston. North, we didn't go so far up. And then we were thinking, okay, anyways, we want to have — so the family was planning to come to visit us in the Caribbean, et cetera. So anyway, we really enjoyed the East Coast of the US. It was a great experience for me, my wife, and the kids as well. Amazing, amazing.

Did you, when you were in Costa Rica, were you on the ocean during the time that you were there? No, no, we were on the Pacific side, very nice place in front of the beach, but not on the ocean at that time. But when you were there, did you see people that were cruisers? Like, did they come down with their boats at all? Did you see that? No, not really, surprisingly, because Costa Rica is amazing, as I said. But there are not too many marinas, and the sailing community on, let's say, the Pacific side, was not yet developed at that time, during Covid time. So no, it's just like, I always dreamt of doing that. And then my wife never, because she was not against it at all, but it was not part of her dream. She just had no idea. She had literally no idea about what is a boat, what is it to live on a boat, what is this lifestyle like.

So that's interesting to me, because I think there's a lot of people that are listening, probably — I hear this a lot — that are in this similar place. Generally speaking, it's the man, but we do run across couples from time to time where it's the woman who's been thinking about this her whole life, and she meets a man who knows nothing about it, and has to get on the same page. So can you tell me about that process? How was that process? You said that she was open to it, which is amazing. And how did you go about the process of getting her, you both getting to the place where she could envision what you've been dreaming about forever, and making the decision jointly that this is both going to be good for you? The way I'm asking this question is, one of the things that we ask people to try and figure out is, you can't convince your partner to go with you. You've got to show them what's in it for them. Like, what are they going to get out of the lifestyle that's aligned with the goals they have for their life? So how did you get to that point?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you're totally right. The first thing is, I'm lucky to have a Justina with me who is quite open-minded, and adventurous to a certain extent, so that was maybe easier for me. But you are totally right, it's not like you want to convince her. She really had to — we had a lot of discussions about what's going to be the life. And from that respect, the class and the course that we took was super helpful, because she's not naive either. So if you start saying to her, or to anyone, oh yeah, you're going to live with the sun and the blue sky, that's not true, that's not the reality of the life over there. So one of the things that I thought of, to make sure that she understands, is that it's an adventure, it's not vacation, and that's for me a big difference. And then being open about, we're going to have fantastic moments, but we're going to have some moments where it's going to be very, very less fantastic. And we can come back on that if you want. But that said, she was open, so that was for me easier, to tell her what the life would look like over there.

And then the main concern she had, rightfully so, was, how do we do it with the kids? How do we do, on a daily basis, with cooking, shopping, and taking care of the kids? You know, usually you send them to the kindergarten or to the preschool, et cetera, where of course you can't. So the main of the discussion was not about her, it was rather about how do we do on the daily life with all the things around us. And then, again, it was very great to exchange with some other families who did that. So we went, of course, on some Facebook groups where families were sitting, to get a better view on that. And I think at the end, giving the right picture — not the glossy, shiny picture of what should be, or what it could be — was helping her to understand, and to be ready, like, we're going to have hard times sometimes, but we're going to have high times. And that was the way we did it. But yeah, in a nutshell, that was really the kids, that was the main discussions around us. Okay, so step one is marry the right person. Yeah, step one. And step zero, and step one, as you nailed it, it's not about convincing her or him — I mean, in some cases — but it's not about convincing the partner. It's about making sure that the partner is comfortable with the idea, and that he's having the right picture on what is expected over there.

That's right, yeah. The way that we put that is realistic expectations. Making sure that you're setting realistic expectations, because in my experience there's no surer way of setting yourself up for failure than to convince somebody to go with you by painting a nice, shiny, amazing image of what this is like. And it's going to last three months, and you're going to have a mutiny on your hands. Absolutely, absolutely. But that's it, Chris, that's it. I tried, as well — I tried to paint it as realistic as I thought it was. But I'm sure we're going to come back on that, if you are interested, because personally I was also even surprised by the daily life on the boat, the maintenance life on the boat as the captain, et cetera. I had to deal with the maintenance way more than Justina. But that was also a surprise for me. I'm sure that it's more on the learning side of that.

So yeah, let's touch on it. Some of the things I want to touch on is, you give us a snapshot — give me a snapshot of kind of what you did. And that's a question I like to ask: what were the surprises for you going into it? What were the unexpected things that came up versus what you'd imagined in your life? Because it's always different. It doesn't matter how much digging and digging and digging you do before you go, it's always slightly different than you think it is. And yeah, so let's go there. What were some of the things that you're alluding to there that came up for you? See, I had enough sailing experience in the past — maybe not living on board, et cetera, but sailing experience. So I had a realistic view, and I was not surprised by either bad weather, or that sort of thing, saying it's part of the adventure.

And I heard a lot, like, you always have something to do on the boat, et cetera. I was like, come on, it cannot be possible to always have something to do on the boat, maintenance. And then that part was really a lesson to me, because as soon as you start stepping on the boat, even if it's a Leopard 2018, so not used during Corona, not used during the pandemic, so not too much use — still, maintenance every time, every day. And I remember one of the discussions that we had in the course, that you were saying, you have to let go at some point, you can't be as perfectionist as you could be in the normal life, because otherwise you get crazy. And at the beginning, I was getting crazy, because, like, yeah, I just repaired that, and that thing is breaking right now. And that was a big lesson to me, that it's actually true, every time you've got something to do all the time, and the true secret is you need to let it go, as long as it's not safety.

Then the other thing that I learned parallel to that is that we took a boat that was out of the charter fleet, but I still had to do a lot of improvement to live aboard, and that's something I did not calculate in my plans of this adventure. The financial part is easy to plan — I mean, how much does it cost for a water maker, I do the installation by myself, et cetera. The thing is, I didn't plan that when you're on the boat, and you are going from marina to marina, or from ports or harbours to harbours, you always need to run somewhere to buy the things in the different shops. And that actually is a bit of a regret to me, that I bought a charter boat with a good quality-price ratio, so to say, but then I didn't factor in the time that you need when you go for an adventure like this. Especially for us, that we were planning one and a half year, two years — I mean, the time is precious, and spending so many times to go to, I don't know, Home Depot, or you name it, to go pick the things up, was something that actually I regret a little bit. I would prefer now to buy a boat that is ready to go, rather than doing that by myself. Even if you've got these — I mean, depending on the personalities — but I really enjoy doing the things by myself. But from a time-optimization perspective, I would do that differently. And that's something I would like to also push to the people there listening: it's important to factor in the time that you're going to spend.

I'm so glad you said that. I'm really glad, because I was going to actually ask you that, what your experience was around buying the charter boat. Because it's something we, in the program that we have now — it's something that, when people want to work with us and work through the whole boat-buying thing with them, it's a process we take them through. And we have people all the time asking us, and I'm sure you mentioned this, you said the price-to-value ratio looks very good on charter boats. You look at the charter boat on paper, it looks amazing on paper, unless you go and — because it's not, you don't know what you don't know. And you didn't know, and the time is the big one, but it's also the money. One of the things we walk people through now is, we have a spreadsheet where we basically let them lay out everything that's on the charter boat, and everything that's on a boat that is more ready to go — it's never fully ready to go, but more ready to go — and to put a value on all of those items. If they were going to have to do all those items, what's the value on all those items? And then put a time beside all of those items. And then, when you see that on paper in front of you, all of a sudden you go, wow, okay, this boat that originally, when you look at the listing, maybe it looks like it's a hundred, or a hundred and fifty thousand dollars cheaper — all of a sudden it's like, maybe it's the same price in the long run, or more money, plus all the time that I'm going to spend. But again, it's this process of, you don't know what you don't know. And I find it all the time, until we run people through that process, I hear it all the time: no, I'm going to buy out of the charter, because it's so much cheaper. It looks cheaper, but it's not, trust me.

I see that a lot on the forums, where people are saying, you have always the debate, are the charter boats beaten or not beaten. I'm not going into that debate, and as far as I'm concerned, it was a non-beaten boat. You can find some, and then you've got always the debate about it. But you're right, the center of the discussion shouldn't be if it's better or not, it should be, what are you going to do for this adventure? If you want just to, like, spend your time in the village, et cetera, yeah, go for it. I'm exaggerating a little bit, but you're right. I wish I would have had that Excel file that probably you propose later on in the course. This is the disadvantage of being in cohort number two. You're right, you're right. But then, it's a learning process. I mean, the only — not the only, but the advantage you have is, besides the satisfaction to, I don't know, install your water maker, et cetera, is that you know your boat in and out. But I guess that if you have to go anyway through the maintenance, at the end of the day it's the same, you're going to know it anyway.

And to your point of being the type of person — because I hear this one too, a lot. Oh, Chris, I'm the type of person that likes to do stuff, I have no problem doing that. Hey, you're going to have more than enough things that you like to do, even on a boat that is ready to go. Because there's — and it's the other thing, this idea of, oh, it's cruise-ready. Nothing's cruise-ready. And I think you touched on it. I say it all the time now, especially about my boat: I'm like, the thing's always just trying to sink itself on me. It's just constantly trying to find different ways of sinking itself, and I'm just keeping it — not literally, but it's just little things that are always breaking. So that's part of the lifestyle. I mean, people who like doing things themselves anyways — it's way more enjoyable to do a do-it-yourself for the decoration, or a small improvement on the shelves or whatever. That's a do-it-yourself, and you get that, rather than doing it because you want to go sailing, et cetera. So doing that under time pressure, because you don't want to spend your time in a marina or whatever, and you want to go sailing — at the end, the do-it-yourself is a great thing, but you can do something for yourself on a nice anchorage without time pressure. So if you want to go sailing or fishing, you do it, and then you do the other thing later, rather than being on time pressure to install the water maker, because you can't go blue-water if you don't have a water maker, in my opinion.

Yeah, definitely. You nailed it. It's the time constraint, especially for families like that. I think, like you alluded to yourself, there was a time constraint here, where you have a start and an end date, and you want to maximize the amount of time on the adventure, not with your head in a bilge. So, lucky, I got that boy, who was four years old, who found it super adventurous and super fun at the beginning to go in the bilge and take the screw, or whatever. So that was a great help. But not for long. After a couple of times, he was like, okay, I'm bored with the beach, I want to go in the water, I'm going swimming, Dad. Exactly — you take this screw by yourself.

Cool. Well, I'm glad you brought that point up, because I think it's a very important point, and often overlooked. Often overlooked, and really, like you said, you're like, man, it's something that to some degree you regret. You're like, hey, I wish I had made the decision a different way, knowing what you know now. And so it's one of those things that I hope people listen to. I really do. Not great for the people selling boats out of charter, but you know. No, but now, the thing is, the point is that people listening to that, they can buy the boats who have been Bluewater Cruising from charter, so they're sure that at least they can take a Bluewater Cruising boat already sort of ready. Mine is actually to find a new owner, just as a message. There you go. And you've spent all the time getting it ready to sail, you've done all the work, and invested all the money in getting it ready to go. I mean, those are the ideal boats. That's what we tell people, honestly.

I don't know if your Excel file is factoring that in, but it's also the time you spend, either on your phone or on your computer, just to — because you don't want to buy the first thing, so you have to compare. And I know, different personalities, different people — sometimes some of them are comparing for hours or days. But regardless, you have to spend time as well to look for the products. And maybe it's a lot of time. So yeah. No, I know it, and that is the time factor. And the time factor, I don't think, is very easy to understand until you've done it. And it's very difficult to really, really — because you and I can sit and have a conversation about that, I know, because I've done it, because you've done it. But somebody who hasn't done it before, if we're like, hey, yeah, you want to put a new water maker, well, you might put 40 hours into just research on the water maker. And so when you start adding these up — we do have these conversations, and we tell people, well, that's going to be that amount of time, and they're like, what, no way. But you know, when you get into it, you'll realize that.

Because you're right, especially in the marine business — like, and you've experienced this, I'm sure — there's a wide variation in quality, and there's also a wide variety of pricing, particularly as you get out into the islands. There's one story that I love, just really quick: a client of ours, Martin, he was buying — he had his boat in the BVIs, and he needed to replace the injectors. And in the BVIs, they were going to charge him twelve hundred dollars per injector to put into his engine, in the BVIs. That was from the Yanmar — Volvo, from the Volvo guys in the BVIs. He didn't do it. He figured out how to do it without doing it. He went to Germany, he got the whole set, everything for like a hundred and fifty bucks — not kidding you. Maybe a hundred and fifty bucks for the whole set of injectors, might have been three hundred bucks, a hundred and fifty to three hundred bucks for the whole set of injectors. Not from Volvo, not from Volvo Penta, but straight from the manufacturer that manufactures the injectors. But you know, again, there was time to go into the research, to figure out, okay, how do I find this? And he went down and figured it all out. But there's time invested in that too. But the savings, yes.

So you're right. I don't know — I know that from French Polynesia, or the Pacific side, that they are facing even higher prices, because of the remote places they are. But even for those who are going to the Caribbean, it's easier to find something in Martinique or in Saint Lucia, because you get — nevertheless, it's not the same offering as in the US. And I remember, actually, when I was doing the course, I wrote the question — I don't know if it's you or Keith who answered that. I was asking, okay, I'm taking the boat in the BVI, and I've got two routes to get out of the hurricane zone, either north or south, so where should I go? And then, I don't know if it was you, Chris, or Keith, who said, I would advise you to go north, because you've got an ex-charter boat, so you want to prepare it for blue-water cruising, you'd better go up on the East Coast of the US. So north rather than south, because on the south you might find some stuff, but as you see, the prices are completely different. You might find good dealers, but still, it's another level. Amazon cannot deliver anything, et cetera. So I followed that, and I went, most of the time I was in Savannah, getting these things delivered. I cannot imagine how much time, and how much it would have cost on top, to do the same upgrades in the Caribbean, in the south.

So yeah, no, it's a really good point. Labor is cheaper in the Caribbean, but getting the — you need to have everything you're going to basically bring with you. Martinique, Saint Martin, you can get some stuff, but it's not the same as the US, depending on what you want to do. Really depends on the project. Maybe Saint Martin is a bit different, because it's so tax-expensive anyway. Yeah, and they fly stuff in direct from Europe into Saint Martin, but it's still different. It's not as — you don't have the same accessibility to the commercial services of the United States.

So, okay, cool. So you bought the boat — where did you buy the boat? It was in the BVIs when you bought it? Yeah, I bought it in the BVI from the owner, because the owner was initially the one that had put his boat in the charter fleet, a French person, and he used it for a couple of months because he wanted a nice vacation. And then I bought it from him directly. So it was quite a good process, with, of course, all the surveyors, et cetera. But — I don't know if I was lucky or not — but a very seamless process, without any frictions. I really liked it. That's good, that's good to hear. I've heard horror stories coming out of the BVI, so that's a good one. Yeah, I know, it's not my case, that's why I'm thinking that I might be lucky on that. It's good to hear.

So then you sailed from the BVIs to the East Coast of the US? Yeah, so we sailed from the BVI, the BVI, USVI, went to Puerto Rico, you know, really the west route, then Dominican Republic, then up to the Turks and Caicos, Bahamas, Florida, and then up to the north. Okay, yeah. And that was before you did any of the upgrades, so that was basically in its kind of charter state? Yeah, you're right, actually. Most of the upgrades — so, lithium, water maker, deck, everything — was in the US. So we were on the charter boat at that time. We were in March, April, so that was good. But yeah, it was needed, to do all the upgrades, and we did everything in the US.

Okay, and how, when you first set off from the BVIs and you did this trip, how was the adaptation process to the lifestyle with the family, and getting them — how did that all go? That's a good question. I think the kids, who were three and five at that time, they are quite flexible, but they have, of course, no sense of safety. So that was the main concern at the beginning, obviously. So they were always tethered. Even if you are on a catamaran, it's not as a mono, but we were always tethering them, because we weren't trusting them. So that's for the kids. But beside that, sleeping in their cabin, and then looking at the water from the cabins, et cetera — and it was BVI, Puerto Rico, Turks and Caicos, so nice waters over there. So they got along.

Let's say, with Tina — so she had to learn everything, from helping me with the anchoring, or raising the sails, or doing the night watch, because we were just the two adults on board. So when you go from Dominican Republic to Turks and Caicos, you have to spend a night at least on the water. So she had to learn everything. And it reminds me a little bit what Keith was saying in one of the YouTube videos, where she was not really interested in the speed. So I was like, hey, look at that, we are here on the beam, that's amazing, look, we are making nine knots or eight knots, whatever — and it's like, okay, it's eight knots. But yeah, I mean, we have to accept that the partner might not be so interested in the same thing. But as we discussed before, she had to find an interest somewhere else. And her interest was waking up in Culebra, in Culebrita, with a beach with no one, taking the paddle, and go run on the beach — that was her thing. Or cooking with whatever she was buying on the different markets. So the learning process for her was more how to deal with the groceries, the supplies, et cetera. And then for me, it was how to deal more with the technical part of the boat.

And of course, the first nights, when you are on the water, were always a bit stressful, to be really honest, because you are in a new environment, especially her — she was in a new environment — and making sure the kids were okay, et cetera. I think what is important, retrospectively, is making sure that the partner is eager to learn something, that's one thing. And then the second thing, that the partner has her own space, where she's interested to be on the boat for a dream reason, and that might not necessarily be the same thing. Actually, that may be better, because then you are complementary. I was bored if I had to go shopping, taking a dinghy, going whatever, finding the supermarkets. She liked it — fair enough, that's good. So the learning process was there. What I always paid attention to was the safety, for the kids, but even for her. Because, you know, anchoring — an accident can happen very quickly with the anchor, with the chain, or with the windlass. So that was a learning process.

To be honest, anchoring was a chore for her, because she was under pressure. I was at the helm, I said, like, okay, where is the sand patch, we need to find a sand patch — and then, is that the sand patch, is that the sun reflecting on the water? And that was really new for her, so she was under pressure. And then, of course, like many couples, sometimes there was a bit of friction between us — you know, frustration, tension. But I have to mention something that is the marriage saver, that probably you already talked about, before or after, in the course. It took us, to be fair, one year, so that she knew exactly what she has to do. One year, and then that was a pleasure. And then we were, most of the time, easy, without any communication, or with a nice communication, saying, hey, okay, you can send her, she's there. But one year is the learning process for someone, as a partner, to really learn sails and anchoring, the basics, when you are on the boat. And after three months she knew what to do, but she was still under stress, pressure, not super comfortable with it. Not comfortable, that's the term. After one year, she was really comfortable, and then she just did the things.

The marriage saver, that you talked about — you know, the headsets, when you are on the boat. And I remember, when I bought it, before leaving Germany, she was like, what is this gadget that you are taking, we are just going on the boat? And I said, yeah, but I saw everyone mentioning that, and I think it's good. If you can avoid a couple of arguments between you and me, that's good. She was shaking her head. But then, after, I don't know, even after two weeks, she's like, oh man, luckily we have that thing. So it's also an advice — it doesn't cost a lot, but that saves a lot of frustrations and arguments, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, it stops you from shouting. That's it. Exactly, and shouting sometimes is understood in the wrong way. You're shouting because you have the engine behind you, and she's in the front of the boat, and she thinks that I'm shouting at her, and I'm not. So yeah, definitely.

Cool, cool. That one-year number, there's something to it, because I think you're a hundred percent right, that for somebody who knows nothing about the lifestyle, to get in and adapt is about a year. And I think the adaptation goes the other way too, even for somebody that knows something about it. But I'll speak for myself — I knew a little bit about it, to adapt was almost like to slow down into the lifestyle. To go from the corporate life of running around, your brain's constantly going a thousand miles an hour, thinking about different things, and then you get out on the water — and I remember, for me, the early days were, I always needed to be doing something. We're going to go here, we're going to go here, we're going to go here. And then, after a year, it's like, okay, actually, we can just sit in this bay for the day and do nothing, and that's totally fine. And that takes like a year. Absolutely. My wife used to call me the busy B, exactly like you were saying, Chris, because I was always doing something. And then it takes time to slow down, and then say, okay, you know what, this place is nice, kids like it, okay, let's stay here for a while. Absolutely. Let's just chill and do nothing. But yeah, that's part of it, and getting away from the phone, or checking your emails or whatever, is also very important.

I think what it adds, as well, is, you see other cruisers there, that are maybe more advanced in their adventure, or they are maybe living there for a while, and that helps you, as well, to sort of tune where you should be in terms of relaxedness, for the lack of a better word. It's true — let it go. It's true, let it go. No, it's true. I found that actually recently, for myself. When we were back in April, we went cruising with clients and friends, and I hadn't been out on a boat in probably like four or five months at that point. And I was on the boat in that mode still, you know, I'm like, oh, let's go. And then Martin, who is with me — he's working, he works from the boat, but he works for two hours or three hours in the morning, and then he's done. And I'm working away, and he's like, dude, let's go enjoy. Right, yeah. So you can fall back into it too.

Cool, okay. So about a year to adapt, to get into it. Kids same deal, or did the kids kind of snap into it right away, and were just loving it, or did it take them a little — was there an adaptation process? No. Kids — I mean, as I said, they were quite small, so they are very adaptable at that age. Yeah, so for us it was, the kids were not the issue. Maybe sometimes the homeschooling, because they were five and three, so the homeschool is more, you know, discovering writing, et cetera. But they were adapting very, very quickly. It's funny, depending on the kid: one of them was seasick all the time, as soon as we were having a bit of a swell. The other, the little girl, was no, nothing, so no problem. As I said, the most adaptability part really was about the safety. We put some very, very strong rules: you don't go beyond this line, you are always tethered, and if you are moving from one point to the other, you tether yourself there, with no exceptions. And they got it quite fast. Of course, they didn't know how to swim very well at the time, so we were a bit — when we were at the anchorage, always at the anchorage, we were always a bit looking around, apprehensive. But after a couple of months, they knew how to float, and then you can trust them a bit more. But that pressure goes back on the shoulders of the parents. I don't know how it is with teenagers, that I cannot comment, I think it's a different story. But yeah, that was an easy process for the kids.

Except, you know, with teenagers — except the other friends, I mean, they were looking for friends, definitely. That's — I'm glad you brought that up, actually. Did you find buddy boats to sail with, with other kids? How did you guys address that, or did you address that, or was it just kind of a family adventure? Yeah, it was definitely a family adventure. We found some kids — to be fair, we found, but they were more teenagers, so our kids were very happy to be with grown-ups, with the teenagers. They were nice, et cetera. But of course, it's not like friendship between people having kids from the same age. We didn't find that, except in the Bahamas, where you've got a lot of cruisers there with families. We found a couple, but otherwise we were taking our own plans, so we didn't have really a buddy boat where we stayed together for weeks or whatever, no. What is funny is that we met some YouTubers, et cetera. You follow the same route, so you meet them here in the Bahamas, or in the US, and then suddenly you meet them in the Caribbean. So that's also one thing we enjoy, is that you know that there are some friends around, so if really you need it, or the kids need it, then you can always say, hey guys, you're not far away, let's have a couple of days together. But with this age of my kids, it was not an issue. Cool, cool.

So you got family visiting? Oh, yeah, cousins, et cetera. So of course, it was not a one year and a half without any kids of their age. And was that the plan — that's interesting too — was that the plan from the beginning, when you did this, that you were going to have family come out and visit for a period of time? Did you guys plan that? Yeah, we planned that. I mean, obviously, we had four cabins, and always one cabin was the guest cabin. We were always planning to have friends and family visiting us. And that's maybe something to look at as well: after one year and a half constantly on the boat, when you see a nice white sand beach, wherever, in the Caribbean or in the Bahamas, you're like, yeah, that's nice. And then you sort of have to analytically think, you know what, we are lucky to be here. It's not the day of everyone, but it's your analytical brain that has to kick in and tell you, hey, you should enjoy. I mean, how many people can have a coffee in the morning looking at that, with no one on the beach and blue water, whatever? And what was very refreshing, when we got guests coming, they were like, wow, this is amazing, look at that. And then everything was amazing for them, because of course it was just for here. And that's very refreshing for you as well, because then you see the emotion of the other, saying, yeah, you know what, you're lucky. But after one year and a half, sometimes, or when you had a bad day because something is breaking, it helps you to go back and reset, saying, like, hey, okay, this is not working, but come on, is that the end of the day? And that was very enjoyable, to have guests coming.

I love that, I love that perspective. When we cruised, we had a lot of — so it's interesting, you said you had family and cousins and stuff come out. My experience, and my experience from a lot of people that I've talked to, is that we thought that we would have more friends and family. Granted, we were in the South Pacific, so it was a little bit harder to get to. But I think the one person who came the most was my dad. My mom visited once or twice, and a couple of friends, over like a four-year period. That was it. And I thought it would be a lot more than it was. And that's my experience talking to a lot of other people too — they're like, yeah, you know, we're going to have all this family, and then, because I forget, or I forgot, people have their lives. And most people, you're like — because I'm like, hey, if you're going to come to the boat, you've got to come for a minimum of three weeks, because if we're going to go anywhere, especially in the Pacific — you need a few days to get there, and then hang out, and then come back, and you've got to plan for flying and all this stuff. And three weeks, for people that are in the normal corporate life, that's a lot. In North America, that's their entire vacation. I know in Europe they get a little bit more, but still.

No, you're right. And so, it's cool what you say, because it's true. When we said it to everyone — when everything was set, we decided to say it, except to the close family — when everything was set, oh man, that's amazing, we're going to visit you. And I was suddenly thinking, oh yeah, we're going to have a lot of visitors. But you're totally right. At the end of the day, my mum came, some close friends, et cetera, and as you said, exactly, even if it's in Europe, so it's a bit easier in terms of the number of days you can take, still, it's a big trip. And then, if they come with the kids, et cetera, just from a cost perspective — I mean, those guys are flying. So you're right, at the end, it's not everyone who can visit.

One thing — the other thing, maybe I would like to share, about exactly the same — is that, when I say, okay, do you know, we're going on the boat, et cetera, oh, amazing, so what is your route? But I mean, at that time my route was very, very approximate, no idea, I'm going north or south, I don't even know. So, okay, let's call us later when you know. I made a mistake, or we made, with Tina, a mistake. I give the example of my sister, saying, hey, you know what, we want to see the whales in Dominican Republic, okay, cool. And we were in the Bahamas, enjoying the Bahamas. So let me go backward — before, my mom saying, I'm going to visit you for Christmas time, perfect. So I said, definitely, we're going to be in the Bahamas the 15th of December, no other way. What I didn't plan, of course, is, we were in Florida, ready to cross the Gulf Stream, where no window, no weather window was allowing us to do it, because, especially for the Gulf Stream, you don't want to take any risks. So we couldn't, and I had to call my mom. I said, hey Mom, you can go to Nassau in the Bahamas, but you have to take note that we won't be there. And then she rerouted, from Canada she rerouted to Miami. But then, okay, we picked her up. And then my sister was coming five weeks later, or six weeks later, I don't remember, in Dominican Republic. And then she asked me, if we come from this vacation in the European vacation, in February or March, I don't remember, would you be there? And I said, yeah, don't worry, we would be there. But again, giving hard deadlines — and then everyone is saying, you know, a deadline is a recipe for disaster, or captain plus deadline is a recipe for an accident, or something like that. It is true, in a way, but without going so extreme, it puts us under a lot of pressure to swallow the miles to be there, because, of course, they were flying with the whole family from Europe, and we don't want to let them down. So, safety aside, still, sometimes we did some sailing that was not comfortable — not dangerous, but really not comfortable — just to be on time. And that puts you under a lot of pressure, as a captain, and as a crew as well. That I would do differently the next time.

Yeah, yeah, I like that. I'm glad you shared that too. One of the things we say is, you can tell your guests, they can pick the location or the date, they can't pick both. Not both. You're right, you're right. And it's true, you can pick the date, but you can't pick the location and the date, which is a bit of a pain, but it's kind of the way you've got to do it. But I love what you said about having the guests, and the perspective that it provides. Because one of the things that we did do — we didn't have a ton of family come frequently, but we would have crew. And we found, with small kids, we liked having people on the boat for this reason also, because it was nice having helpful hands around. There was a series of youngish couples, like early 30s, and they came — we called them, they called themselves flashpackers. They were people that had taken long sabbaticals, and they were traveling around the world, like backpackers, but they had some money. And so that's why they called themselves flashpackers. They would pay to come on and crew on the boat for the experience. And we had them come for like months at a time, like a month or two months at a time. And it was amazing, for exactly what you said, because they would come and be like, this is amazing. And I would show them kiteboarding, and surfing, and free diving, and scuba diving, and all this. And it was new, and so it made it new for us again. And so I totally get what you're saying when you say that. I think it's one of the key ingredients, if you're going to do it for a longer period of time, to share it with other people.

Yeah, and that brings you back a little bit to the reality of the world. At the end of the day, we are lucky to do it, especially families with kids, because somehow in life we get the flexibility, be it financially, be it work-wise, et cetera, to do it. And you tend to forget that thing after one year, or one year and a half on the boat. And that brings you back to the reality, and I really like it. And then, even sometimes, when we were in Saint Lucia, we found a family on the beach, and we asked them, what are you doing? Oh, we are on vacation for two weeks at this hotel. So I'm asking, okay, so have you been visiting the island? Yeah, but the island is small, so now we have done everything. And we said, okay, you know what, come on the boat with us, we're going to stay for two hours here and there. And they were so into this, because they were saying, that's amazing. And that was a great surprise for them, for free, because there was no point — it was not about paying something, it was really just sharing what we do. And giving, sometimes, is also a pleasure to do. I agree with you. Yeah, I love that. We did that — I remember a couple when we were in New Zealand. We met them just at a restaurant, and just started chatting with them, and they came on our boat. We were at this place called Great Barrier Island, and they came on the boat for like an afternoon. And then we stayed in touch, and we were friends with them, and then, just like, you know, we were whatever, on Facebook, and then we ended up going on a road trip, and we stayed at their house down in Wellington, they took us out and showed us — that was amazing. You make amazing friends doing that kind of stuff. So yeah, that's cool.

That's cool. So you went to the US, got the boat all set up, went back to the Caribbean. How long, in total, was the cruise for you guys, of BVIs to the US, and then outfit, and then back in the Caribbean? About 18 months, yeah. 18 months. We took the boat in February '23, and we are back home since June '24, this year. Okay, so. And what would you say — go ahead, go ahead. No, no, I was just saying, and we took the course — that was really the conclusion of the decision, so to say — in 2022, the spring quarter. I don't remember exactly the date, but it was starting in May or something, at least over the weeks. So, cool. And so that's, I was going to ask you that — so taking the course was kind of like the deciding one, like the conclusion of the decision, as you put it. So it's like, taking the course, and at the end of the course, it's like, okay, yeah, we're more or less on the same page, your wife's come along a little bit, she understands more about what this is about, and knows what she's signing up for, more than she did before, and the decision was made. That's cool, that's cool.

Yeah. And from this side, she didn't have any bad surprises. I think the course was done in a way that she could really see, and you could talk with the other classmates, or with Renee, et cetera. So she knew where she was going. Of course, she didn't know the technical part, and that was not the purpose there, but she knew. So no bad surprise from her side. Realistic expectations. Exactly, I think that's a nice module. Yeah, I mean, that's the idea, that was the expected outcome we were hoping for, for people in taking it. And we developed that more now. We've got — now we have folks like yourselves, and other people that are out cruising, and they come back and talk to the other people that are coming through the program now. So it's not just myself, you know, Keith, Renee, Sayo — we've got a whole armada now of people that are doing it. So it's cool. It's building on itself.

Another question I like to ask is, so, 18 months, you were doing the corporate life before, did the course, did this whole change, and now you're going back into another version of the corporate life, where you're at now, selling the boat. What would you say was, for you, as a family, and maybe yourself personally, the big outcomes from cruising? Like, any kind of transformations that happened, or things that happened as a family — what are the big takeaways for you, from the whole experience? So, okay, the easiest part of the answer, the first part, is that the outcome is that you are witnessing crazy situations — I mean, positively. When you are the whole family, having a drink in front of the beach, et cetera, you are alone, you wake up in the morning. But that's the shiny part, that everyone is expecting, and then it does happen, of course. But I would say the main outcome is, like, growing as a family. Because you always grow in the challenging situations. And then, seeing, for instance, how Tina is reacting when you are under time pressure — because, you know, when we crossed the Gulf Stream the second time, it was very bad. Or when we were crossing from Turks and Caicos to Dominican Republic as well. And then you don't feel comfortable, borderline safe — even if, retrospectively, we were super safe, because it was not big weather, et cetera. But the result is the same: the family was like, okay, now we are in a tricky situation. You grow as a family.

And the kids also saw us in a different setup. Because, you know, a traditional life — be it corporate, or any other professional life — you go back home in the evening, it's easy, you go back with the car, you have a dinner, you go in the weekend sports, et cetera. But for the kids to see their parents in a critical situation, in the sense of a non-usual situation, I think it's very interesting for them. I think, in the eyes of the kid, this is different, when they see — especially, of course, when they see that you are taking things calmly most of the time, and reacting in a good way. So that's with the kids. And then, with Justina, with my wife, finding ourselves, both of us, in situations that we never met before, you discover another part of your couple. And yeah, it's a very different way of living, and a way of discovering your second half, to do that. So the big outcome for us is, I know, and she knows, vice versa, how we are when we are under pressure, when we have to do something fast. And again, it's not because we're going to die, it's rather, we're going to damage the boat if we don't react fast. So of course, you've got the pressure, and then it's very interesting to see how we react, and how calm we could be, or not calm, sometimes. So you grow as a family through that, a lot.

So it's grown, it's deepened the relationship with your family, with your kids, with your wife, in general. And have you found that that deepening of the relationship has carried back now, because you're back on land and doing the corporate life thing — has that maintained, to some degree? Yeah, I mean, you tend to forget, somehow, sometimes, I would say. Or it tends to wear down a little bit, with the routine coming back. I mean, I know it's not really routine, we just came back for a couple of months only, but it's there, anyway. So it's there, and it's an additional building block on the relationship that's going to stay, for sure. But we know it's there. Yeah. I love that. One of the things that I've said before is, cruising is, in a lot of ways, a test on people's relationships. And some relationships fail it — they just can't withstand the stress of what you're talking about, and they fall apart. But the ones that — right, no, you're right, you made it. I think you mentioned it in the course as well, that you have to be sure. It's a test, it's sort of a catalyser of the relationship. If the relationship is positive, that's going to be even better — through sometimes frictions, but it's growing up a bit. If it's negative, then it's going to explode, or break down, definitely. And I think we knew that part, we never had a question, because we'd been together for a long time before the kids, et cetera, and we have been living, sometimes, in very tiny spaces. So for us, living in this promiscuity was not a question. But I really understand that, for some people who have not been living in a tiny space, in a way — I mean, even if you take a catamaran of fifty or even bigger, you are still living in promiscuity. And I think it's something to assess at the beginning. For us, as I said, it wasn't a question, but it could be for some, and that's very important.

And what about the kids? Are they back in school now, or — I guess they never started school. No, they never started school. Yeah, it's funny, because the positive thing is that they have to play together. Because, you know, you're on the boat, so if you don't have any other kids, they have this complicity that I think, I hope, will last forever, because they play together, et cetera. The downside of that is, as you said, we send them to school right now, and it's funny, they don't have all the social code that a kid that has been at school has, because that's the first year of school. But then, in France, or in Germany, both, they have the different preschool, so they are anyway with other kids. And that's funny, because the kids they met on a boat are kids who are also looking and seeking for friendship, and then it's easy to connect, because, you know, you've got those guys, you play together, that's an easy question. Now they come back into a life where all the kids know each other from the previous school, the previous year, and then my boy is going to approach the kids as he would approach them when we were on the boat, but the others are like, who's this guy, we don't want to talk to you, we are friends here. And that's a bit heartbreaking. But, as I say, kids are very flexible, so they are now learning the codes, but they are learning that late, compared to the other kids. So that's funny to see, as well. The kids that we've met on the boat, who have been living for three years, four years, or even more, they have very different personalities. And one of the things I've noticed with the kids is that they are able to engage with adults very differently, compared to a kid that is going to school. And that is, for me, very striking and interesting to see.

Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up too. I recognize the same thing, I see the same thing in my daughter, by the way, that you just said. Because she goes to a school here now, in Bali. And I don't know, I mean, she was on the boat for four years with us, and then she started going to school, and it's the same thing — she goes up to these kids, and she's been in the school now for almost two years, in this school, a year and a half I think, but she goes up to these kids, and she just thinks that everybody wants to be — you know, that they're going to come to her the same way she's coming to them. And they don't, and it's heartbreaking for her. We've really had to talk to her about this, and try and work her through it, because she just doesn't understand. Daddy, why don't they want to play with me, I don't understand why they don't want to play with me. She just wants to play with everybody, because that's — and the same thing with the relationship with the adults. She's able to — I mean, she's seven, turning eight now, but even when she was like five or six, she could hold a conversation with an adult, to a degree, as a five- or six-year-old could, and she would go up and talk to them. I remember when we first came to Bali, we would go out places, to restaurants, and she would walk up to tables at the restaurant, with just random strangers, and be like, hey guys, my name is Mia, how are you, what's your name? And they're just like, who is this girl? And I think — I don't know, I'm biased, because it's my own kid, but I think it's interesting, when I hear stories like this from other people that have cruised, and their kids have the same kind of things, that there's something to that. There's something that happens when they're in that environment, and they're with the family, and they're not in that school place, that they learn a different set of skills.

Yeah, and I think those skills are super valuable. Super valuable. No, that's another thing that I was very happy with, is what they learn. My boy learned how to do a bowline, et cetera, or that sort of thing. Or, you know, I don't know the word in English, but the kit to attach the dinghy, et cetera. It's all very practical things. One day my daughter, she locked herself in the bathroom, and then she couldn't open the door, so the boy was saying, okay, you know what, maybe I can go on the beach and then open from here, whatever. So this practical thinking that we have to have when you are on the boat, anyways, adults and kids — I think it's an invaluable skill for them. I just regret that we have not been able to stay longer, for life reasons, but the story is not finished yet. But still, because they learn so many valuable skills — one of them that I always say to my friends that are more staying at the same place is, they learn flexibility. And in the future that is coming, flexibility would be — it's not even an advantage, it has to be there. The kids have to be adaptable to any sort of situation. And I think, on the boat, they learn, and we as adults as well learn, that you cannot plan, or you cannot be frustrated, if your plans are not working for the next three days because the weather is not there, or whatever. And I think it's also a big skill that we learn through this adventure. I agree — to be comfortable with the unknown. Or comfortable with the uncomfortable, as comfortable as you can be with the uncomfortable. No, I love it, man.

So, what's — you touched on a few times — what do you think is next for you? You're back on land. And, yeah. You see, Chris, one thing — so, to answer your question, but I will do somewhat of an Oedipic quote answer — is, yeah, one thing that was missing on the boat is the challenging part of your brain. Not — it's not true, let me rephrase that. One thing that was missing on the boat is, you are challenged every time, you have to find a solution because something is breaking, and you don't have either the tool, or the exact replacement kit, et cetera, you need to find. So this part of the brain is always switched on, and a hundred percent working. But what I was missing a little bit is the work-related brain power. So, analytical thinking of whatever situation, depending on your work, or engaging with customers, or you name it — this part, I was a bit missing. So that makes me happy now, to answer your question, to go back. That's the only part that makes me happy to go back on land, into a normal working professional life. But that's it. And then, again, it's weird, and once you start back on this, of course, you're going to miss the other part of the boat, of the boat life, big time. But that was a bit missing.

And I remember, I think Chris was saying once that, yeah, you have to occupy your brain with something, you cannot just focus only on the boat, because otherwise you start being really tunnel-thinking on that thing. And it's something that, also, maybe to pay attention to, is, make sure that you have other ways of being, doing a YouTube, doing video, to share some stuff, or having a side job, or whatever. But I think it was something I was missing, and I'm happy to go back. And then the future for us is that we leave the kids right now at school for a while, so they go back into the normal schooling system, and we go back to working. And probably, in a couple of years, we will definitely do it again. Definitely. I think, when I see the kids looking at the boats — we are lucky to live close to the sea right now, so, looking at the boats, et cetera, yeah, Papa, maybe we should go on that one. So we miss it, me and Tina and the kids, in a different way. Yeah, so definitely, that's just the pause in the plan.

But maybe I'm going backward to the point where people were saying, oh, you're crazy to do it, what about your career, what about — I mean, again, you've got people dying from one day to the other, like this. You never know what the future is made of. And I think making a break in the career, first of all, is sometimes necessary, and it brings so much value when you're back. I'm talking more for the people who think about making a break — actually, it should be, we should be paid to do that, because you come back better. I agree, I agree. It should be encouraged. Well, you grow, like, to your point, you grow, your family grows, you deepen relationships, and that makes you a more valuable human, in my opinion. So, yeah. I also resonate with this thing about the work thing, though. Because, for me, what it was, was creativity. That was the big piece that was missing, a creative outlet. I had like a guitar on the boat, and I was like — but a consistent creative focus, I didn't. It's difficult to maintain that while cruising, because there's so many demands from the boat, especially if you're really actively cruising. Because, like work, for example, if you have to be on at a certain time — and I know I have friends that they work and they cruise, but it's a much different way than the people that full-time cruise. Because if you're full-time cruising, the boat and everything is your number one priority. And then, in work or business, it's very difficult to run a business if your boat is your number one priority, and not the business. So that was my thing. And my answer to that was starting what we're doing now, which, funnily enough, brought me to a place where I'm not cruising at the moment either, because I'm now so in the zone of creating and building again. And it is a bit of this, like, back-pendulum thing.

You see, exactly. I think you nailed it. It's, for me, that thing — we did this, when I talk to Tina, I say, hey, do you miss the boat? And she said, right now — I think it was yesterday, we talked about that — and she said, I'm not missing the boat, like making the bread at home, or cooking for the kids, or taking the dinghy to go shopping. She's enjoying the time, the fact that here we just go down the street and we can buy something. She said, but yeah, it's a pendulum, because more and more we are missing the pleasure of sailing, or fishing, or you name it. And then you're right. For me, the next step is more like the other side of the pendulum — not going to extreme into the working life, but knowing that, at some point, the pendulum will go the other side, and we're going to go back on the boat, definitely. I think, even for Tina, it's not — she would like to go back on the boat, not now, but she knows that we will miss that at some point, and go back again. Yeah, it's really a balance, I think. Maybe in the future, depending on how the remote work is developing across the world, having four months on land, and then the rest of the year on the boat, is, at least for us, the perfect spending, because you can appreciate both sides. And then the boat side is a bit bigger, or a bit longer, because it's a better life anyways.

But it's funny you say that, because that's exactly the conversation Sayo and I have, my wife and I. It's very similar — she misses aspects of it, but she's been very clear with me that, you know, we sailed basically for four years almost straight, and she's like, I don't want to do that again. I love it, I love being on it and going to these places, and then I need to get off the boat for a bit. And I think it's an important point, because there's a lot of people — not a lot, but there's a number of people that do get involved, that want to get involved in cruising, and they think, like, I'm going to buy a sailboat, sail off into the sunset, and I'm going to do that for the rest of my life. I hear that, and it's not realistic. Because the reality is, there's a very, very small number of people that actually cruise more than three years. It's not that many people. The average is 18 months to three years. And like you, you guys, you're right in the average — you did an 18-month thing, and then on to something else, and maybe come back. Some people do come back. And a lot of people, I don't think, think about it that way. They think about it like, I'm going to go, and it's going to be — but they don't think about these things, like, okay, what about the creativity, a creative outlet, what about getting off the boat? And the ones that do do it longer, like Keith on Zatara — he gets off the boat. He gets off the boat for three or four months a year, and then comes back, and then, like you said, it's fresh.

Yeah, I think, because sometimes people are a bit attracted by the shiny pictures, like, oh yeah, I can do that all my life, to have a coffee in front of the beach. No, you can't. You can't. Exactly. And then, having the time, taking the time, to think on the long term about something, being creative, being something — it is something that is quite rare on the boat, because you always have to be on the reactive side. Reactive side, unless you are anchoring for three months somewhere. But you're right, it's a balance between both, work and — for me, in many situations, that's the best, definitely. And that's why we are working on this team. But yeah, as you said, for you, in your case, we have to wait a bit. And then, also, we digest. We digest, when you look at the picture — you know, when your iPhone is reminding you, oh, you were here one year ago, or whatever, you're like, yeah, that was a great day. So we digest all the things that we went through. And maybe one thing that I also could identify, one year on, appeared to us — we went through so many experiences, mostly positive, but also challenging, sometimes, that actually it doesn't feel like one year and a half, it feels like you have been there for four years. Because you have so many events that you went through. When you compare to friends, you come back after one year and a half, and say, hey — I didn't see them, and say, hey, what's new? Nothing, or I bought a new car, or whatever. But you feel that the life has not been changing for them, where for us, we've got so many memories, that is not the usual number of memories you would get in one year. Okay, you can get the memories of your vacation, for two weeks, three weeks somewhere, that's it. But then you multiply that by ten, maybe, I don't know. So that's the feeling we had as well. This one year and a half was actually worth four years of life, in terms of memories. You experienced a lot, yeah.

Is there anything — I always like to ask this — is there anything, there's a bunch of people that listen to this, I think, and I hope. Is there anything that, for those that are listening — and there are people that listen that are thinking about going cruising, thinking about, maybe they're in the same position that you are in, in a career right now, have the opportunity to take some sort of a sabbatical, or maybe work remote for a little bit, or whatever it is, the ability to take some sort of a break and step into the cruising life for a period of time — any one piece of advice that you would give somebody who's contemplating doing that, who's thinking about the decision, they haven't quite made it yet, but they're thinking about doing it? Yeah, I mean, actually there are a lot. I think we touched on a couple of them. You know, you have one life, you never know what the future is made of, et cetera. But I'd say one thing that I would say on top of the lessons I shared — and you probably, it's the same that what you were advising in the course, so probably they know already. One of them, and also it's part of your course that I didn't listen to enough, apparently, is, make sure that you make a budget that is really fitting your life. Because sometimes we were a bit short on the budget, and I was too optimistic, I would say, or not enough realistic on unexpected expenses. And that goes back to what I learned with you on the course, which is, take a boat that still allows you to have enough money on the side, so that you can enjoy. And I'm not talking about going to the restaurants of the marina or whatever, no, I'm talking about unexpected maintenance, et cetera. And then, of course, I had this budget, but it appeared to be a little bit too short compared to what I planned. Fair enough, I had other savings that I could take on, so it would not impact our experience or our life. But, had I not had that, it would have been a less funny experience, that adventure that we had. So that's one thing — make sure that the budget is good. And then, yeah, as you said, if people have the possibility to do a career break, don't question it too much, like, oh, I'm not going to do my career because it's not worth it. The complicity that we have with our kids is worth any penny that we didn't make during this career break. And with my wife. Amazing, amazing.

I love it, I love hearing that. That's, like, that's my jam, that's our jam, is just go and do it. It's like, if you're thinking about it — yeah, it's the same one. I try to tell people all the time, like, the only thing you can't control, the only one, is the wrong thing. The only hurdle, the only obstacle that's not overcomeable, to get out and live this in some form or fashion, is health. It's the only obstacle. Like, everything else — money, there's always a way you can do it, you just have to maybe lower your expectations as to what it looks like, but there's always a way you can do it. Money, family, friends, job — it's all overcomeable, and health's the only one that's not. And so I think — I'm yeah, I think you guys are rad. I think it's amazing that you actually stepped in and did it. It's very rare, man, it's very rare. It is, it's one percent of boat owners that actually go and cruise their boats this way and do this. It's very, very rare.

Listen, Chris, on that topic, people were saying, oh, you — I mean, the usual thing — oh, you're crazy, either because, oh, but Justina, she has never been sailing, or, how are you going to do, et cetera, or, why are you crazy for your career? Whatever the reason we were crazy. And you're right, we are a very, very small amount of people, percentage-wise, that are doing that. But what was very comforting for us is that, when you're sailing, and going away from the BVI, where you have a lot of people just spending two weeks on the boat, or whatever — but when you are taking the cruiser's route, then you realize you're not alone, actually. You realize that there are many people, crazy people, that are doing that, with their kids, that are doing that working from their boat, or you name it, or pensions, of course, pensions. But it's crazy to many people, because it's a small percentage. But a small percentage of a lot of people living on this earth — actually, you have people, you meet them. And that was very comforting to us, saying, like, hey, you know what, at least we are not so crazy, there are many people there. Yeah, yeah. And it's a close-knit community, because of that reason. Because it is a very small percentage, percentage-wise it's a small number, but as an absolute number, there's actually a lot of people. But because percentage-wise it's such a small number, it's a close-knit community. It's a very small world, very, very small world.

But yeah, I think it's rad, I think it's amazing you guys did it. I'm stoked for you, I'm stoked to hear what's next for you guys. Yeah, we'll keep in touch, Chris. I mean, I'm very happy to participate again, or if any people would like to have some questions, rather on the family or whatever, you can redirect to me, and I'm happy. And then, as I said, maybe if someone wants to purchase a Bluewater Cruising boat, and not spend his time, or her time, on the beach, they can also contact you, and then you can make a contact, or whatever. But absolutely, man. Thanks again for the course, because it was, you know, the perfect last drop in the water, to say, okay, now we go, we do it, we're ready. We felt we were not ready, but we were, thanks to the course. It was a big — yeah, it was comforting, and so much learning, when we got through the course. So really, it was a very, very cool experience to have. Amazing. It gave you the confidence to pull the trigger and go. Okay, that's cool, that's super cool. You're super welcome, and thank you for hopping on and sharing your time with me and everybody that's listening. I really appreciate it. It's been great having a chat.

Alright guys, well, that's it for this month, I guess. This is going to be the podcast this month, with Steeve. Thank you very much, everybody who's had a listen this month. I would love to know in the comments, guys, one thing that you've learned from the conversation with Steeve, or one thing that you just loved about listening to this chat. Let us know that in the comments. We love to hear your comments, hear what you have to say. Also, let us know if there's something you want to hear us chat about next month. So thanks for listening, and we'll see you guys all next month. Take care.

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